A conversation with civil rights litigator, Miranda Galindo and poet, Javier Zamora.
On this episode, we speak to civil rights litigator, Miranda Galindo and poet, Javier Zamora. Recorded two days after the 46th presidential election, we discuss inspiration, wisdom and how we can find beauty and life in these challenging times.
Shout out to a number of organizations, projects for you to check out as recommended by Miranda & Javier:
Poets Out Loud Podcast
Episode 1: So Much Life
Guests: Miranda Galindo and Javier Zamora
Host: Sarah Gambito
For more information: https://poetic-justice.org/podcast
INTRODUCTION
[vibrant music playing]
Sarah Gambito:
Welcome to Poets Out Loud, the podcast series of Poetic Justice Institute at Fordham University. We explore the power of poetry to transform the world through acts of imagination and the energy of new language. On this podcast, we will speak to movers and shakers who will help you understand the world around us and how to change it. Poets Out Loud -- where art and action meet. I'm your host, Sarah Gambito.
Sarah Gambito
I'm so excited to welcome Miranda Galindo, who is a civil rights litigator with Demos and also Javier Zamora, who is a poet and author of the book Unaccompanied, and one of the lead poets for the Undocupoets Project. So I'm so excited to be speaking with the two of you. So I have a couple of questions that I'll ask each of you, and then we'll kind of just open out to an open conversation. So I'll begin with Miranda. So my first question for you is what's inspiring you right now in this sort of tumultuous time.
Miranda Galindo
I have to say. One of my favorite moments of the last few months was going to Black Lives Matter protest in Brooklyn, New York, and seeing who the diversity of folks showing up and showing up with their kids and showing up from all walks of life and shutting the street down with a bicycle protest. And it was one of the most thrilling moments of my life to see folks coming together and unequivocally standing against these injustices by, you know, while enforcement and in some cases, private actors who are not held accountable by our justice system. And that was, that was a really beautiful thing.
Sarah Gambito
I love it. I love it. Okay. My next question is we're in a moment when language is being stripped of meaning when fake news can barely be differentiated from actual fact, what is the role do you think of the writer? Because you are a writer as well, right? Of the writer, of the poet and our moment right now, our political moment right now,
Miranda Galindo
A writer in the broader sense is about speaking to hearts and minds. And so I think so much of my challenge with my writing is that it's easy to kind of just lose your common sense and lose your heart. But I think at the core of these issues is the story of our clients. And at the core of, you know, the subject matter of any writer is whose story are you telling and giving the reader and the audience an opportunity to see the world from, from their shoes and to really get it that there's an injustice that's occurring and you want this gut reaction, like this is not right.
Sarah Gambito
Yeah. You know, and it's interesting, I guess this is a comment for both of you. Like, I've been thinking about how Trump has been saying the words voting fraud, like again and again, and like for the last number of weeks. And I was thinking of, of incantation of if he repeats it enough and when enough people hear it, they believe that it's true. And, Javier as a poet, right? It's like, that's repetition. Like it's in, it's in your body. Right. You hear it enough, you like absorb it. And there's like no truth to it, but people believe it as if it were true and that language can do that. Language can cast a spell to create a reality. Right?
Miranda Galindo
It's terrifying. And I think Sarah, something that you and I had spoken about earlier was the importance of language and shaping, shaping the narrative and shaping the issue. And so what you definitely don't want to do as a litigator is to take the opposing argument and, and just kind of go down point by point and, and have your counter argument. What you want to do is offer up an affirmative vision of how should we be looking at this issue. And within that, within the substance of that is hopefully you know, addressing why the other side's position is inaccurate and why yours is accurate, but it's very important to put forth an affirmative vision of how things ought to be seen and not just be responsive. And so saying, for example, your example there, if he's saying voter fraud, and you're saying there's no voter fraud, that's kind of feeding into that dynamic that he's already set up. It's like, you kind of, you're taking the bait in a way when you just respond directly to what's being said.
Sarah Gambito
Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. So Poetic Justice Institute, our theme right now is Witness. What do you think needs to be witnessed right now in writing or in our democratic process? And you can answer this however you want. What needs to be most witnessed right now?
Miranda Galindo
I think a good starting place is our personal accountability and in ourselves. And if we're thinking of how we want the world to be and who would we be in that world? I think a place to start is witnessing yourself and how are you falling short of that vision? And so personally, I've had a lot of education about acknowledging and trying to destroy the anti-blackness that is in my own life and my own existence. I'm a Latina and there's a lot of anti-Blackness in the Latino community. And then kind of from that microcosm of the self, you can go into the microcosm of your community and be standing up for the things that you believe in calling things out where were they amiss and trusting that witnessing that little voice inside yourself that says something's not right with this situation. And kind of leaning into that. I try, I think that that's one of the silver linings of being a sensitive empathic person. That's very upset by the state of the world. Is it like, I mean, there's something still tender inside of you that hasn't been destroyed.
Sarah Gambito
That's beautifully said. I think that's so grounding to hear right now when I feel really out of myself, really out of my body and really tossed around right now, but to say like, know what to do now is to really ground down inside of yourself and witness yourself. I love that. Okay. And I realize I, if I could have done this, this over again, I would have asked the question, have both of you answer instead of having it be separate like this. But so maybe what I can do for the last question is bring both of you in, and then circle back with you, Javier, on the other questions. But so for both of you how can we bring, all of us, artful action into our waking lives right now? Like what can we do right now? And you can answer it however you want, whatever comes to mind.
Javier Zamora
It's been really tough here and hearing that I just go, cause I'm in Tucson now. And we went out for election day to drop off the ballot. I can't vote still, but my partner can. And I just now I think even before we know the result of the election, I feel that the right has already won because I'm looking for signs of safety in strangers that I see. And so when I hear artful action, my mind, I don't know, my mind went to political shirts and like just any pin nowadays, if you can show and you have the privilege to show your colors because the right is doing that. The right has have their hats. They have everything they have like these very boisterous shirts. So as liberals, I think what we need to do, artful action, will be just, again, what I like, what you said about grounding yourself would be to use ground yourself and show colors of solidarity for people like myself near the border, previously undocumented to let me know that I can, in other words, fuck with you. And that I'm not scared of you. So I don't know political shirts.
Sarah Gambito
I love that. I love that. It's like, yeah, w where's our swag, like, why should I have needs to be up to, up to snuff? Yeah. A sense of safety, a sense of like, it's okay. When we lock eyes. It's okay. I can have a harbor when I see you in the street. Right. Just seeing that can be such a balm right now when we're all so raw. Thank you, Javier. And, and so, so Miranda, how about you artful action.
Miranda Galindo
Again, I think you, anything has to start with you know, a strong foundation of your sense of self. And and then just personally speaking from the I, this is like a personally, a very anxious time. I do this work because it helps me deal with my anxiety. There's something I can kind of do. And it can be artful action to like get out of bed in the morning and make yourself a beautiful cup of coffee. And and to be compassionate with yourself, when maybe you can't focus on your job as much, maybe you can't be there for your partner. And and to give yourself that grace to do each little step in the day that helps you get through it and recognition that no, we don't all have to be scaling racist, Confederate statues or making a clandestine mural, or making the perfect social media post. There are certainly actions that can artful that are important. I think having the grace to know your limits and also to know your power.
Sarah Gambito
I'm circling back bit Javier, what is inspiring you right now in this crazy moment?
Javier Zamora
In a weird way, it's inspiring to see white America and white media finally begin to understand the term Latino and that we're not just one vote, one race, one political identity. And I find it inspiring that hopefully now we're going to begin to really deconstruct the term like it needs to be. Latino is not a race, and we can see why white Cubans would vote for Trump. And we can see why white passing Latinos of all nationalities would vote for Trump. And I think I find that inspiring, very dark inspiration, but I think this is the beginning of what needs to happen to counter anti-Blackness anti indigeneity in their own, in our own ethnicity, that being Latinxs.
Sarah Gambito
Hmm Hmm. Right. Right. Because to, to basically lump everybody together is erasure, it's violence. And to have to contend, to reckon with the complexity of what it means to be Latino. I absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. And so similarly as well, like what do you think is the role of, of the poet, of the writer right now? What should writers be doing right now?
Javier Zamora
Saving energy and recording. I think it right now is a more taking notes time and preparing, preparing the poems that regardless of who wins. Even if Biden were to win. And this goes to the witnessing, jumping ahead because I heard the questions already. It would be to witness and record what is happening in order to not give our, I'm talking as a liberal, give liberals a pass. This is clearly we're seeing that Trumpism is very much alive. Conservatism's very much alive. It's not a blue wave. And so we as writers need to hold liberals accountable. So there isn't a red backlash to Biden, a potential Biden win. And if Trump wins, we still, we need to even do more work than we did the last four years, because clearly we are not doing enough. We are still everybody thought that now we're talking to each other, we're still in different camps. And we need to create that conservative, liberal, almost discussion that that's what needs to happen. And as writers, we can begin to bridge those gaps artfully because clearly whatever we're doing is not working. Liberal media says a lot of problematic shit and is racist in its own way, but they think they're not. So there's this weird thing of deniability that happens. And I feel as liberals, we need to call that out. And whenever I say this at readings, cause this is what I've been saying at readings. They're like, but, but then the conservatives are going look at your point and they're going use it. I'm like, well maybe if they use the point, conservatives are going see that there are similarities, more similarities than we think with the left and the right, or like the center that is still continuing to vote for Trump, because there's a huge chunk of this country that does feel abandoned by the Democratic party because the Democratic party has abandoned them. They are not wrong to feel like this. And that's why they're voting that way. So we need to offer up something that they can bite.
Sarah Gambito
I'm curious, what, what either of you would say to the 20 year old who's like I don't even know if there's going to be a world in 10 years. You know, I, I, I don't even know how, how to scrounge up, like crumbs of hope right now. When it seems like America has refused to reckon with its original sins, right. And continues to willfully close its eyes, right. Like they're being, we're being called out as a country. Right. and but what they say now, right, is that the, the red part of the country is even more red and the, and the blue part of the country, even more blue. Right. And, and what do we say to young people who are looking at all of this and are just throwing up their hands? Like, what, what would you say to that 20 year old?
Miranda Galindo
Part of my pep talk is what I mentioned earlier, which is, you know, if you feel really unhappy and really disturbed by bad things around you happening that you witnessed, that's a sign of hope that you're not completely jaded. You're not completely nihilistic, that there's something still tender in you that that is affected by these things. And that it's a completely reasonable proportionate response to feel that way, because things truly are on fire around us. And also looking and so letting them know that, you know, they're not crazy. Like validating those feelings, first of all. That assuring them that they're not alone in that feeling. And I think it does give me some comfort to look a historical lens sometimes. Like you're saying that this isn't, I don't think that there's just more evil in the world today than there was four years ago. It's it's taking, it's a different form. And so pointing out, throughout history, you know, just even voter suppression. What has that looked like historically? And how did history respond and looking at movements and looking at the role of people that are in their shoes. Looking at students, and how have students been powerful in these moments in the past? And, and they are doing it right now. And what are the tangible effects of that activism and of that movement work. And in contributing to that, that political thought and storytelling.
Sarah Gambito
Javier, how about you?
Javier Zamora
Similar. I would say, sorry, because I felt like you did 10 years ago too, and we didn't, we haven't done anything. But also what Miranda was saying. I have therapy on Wednesdays and I'm so grateful that it was like the day after the election. And my therapist pretty much told me that because I've felt that I felt what I felt that day for years that, Oh, of course, this country is still super racist. Although now it's looking more like Biden might win. We don't know, but it's still too close to call. And that, I think we all expected a blue wave. So even if Biden wins, it does not feel like a win. And I was like, am I crazy? I've been that guy. Who's been saying, Trump is going to win again. Trump is going to win again. And I felt like I was like, there's something wrong with me? Am I really that negative? And now it's like, my therapist was like, this is the reality. We're seeing the reality of this country. And you feel the way that you feel, because it is what is happening outside. So I'm just backing up what Miranda said. That's exactly that shit is burning.
Miranda Galindo
Yeah. You don't want to have a willful blindness, but it's okay. Cause it's not. Like that that's harmful to, to feel like things are fine, when they are not. You know to some extent, we've got to have, you know, to survive and we've got to have some boundaries and emotional sources of strength and safe spaces. But yeah, I, I agree with you, Javier.
Sarah Gambito
I wonder for both of you, what teaching, or maybe what words are strengthening you or are, you know, have strengthened you. Like what do you, what do you call back to?
Miranda Galindo
I heard a story had, so I didn't personally witness this, but I have gotten the pleasure of meeting Dolores Huerta a few times, but I wasn't there when she supposedly said this, but I think, I believe that this was in the context of some advocates speaking together after the Trump election and someone communicated to Dolores. Oh, I am so scared and so upset that Trump has won and just feeling like I just want to throw my hands up. And Dolores responded, Oh, this is when it gets fun. Finding the, the joy and the playful space in resistance and feeling like, I really feel like we're on the right side of justice and looking back historically and just thinking like, Oh, those heroes who marched on Selma. And that was like in like, okay, this is my chance now to step up and let's have fun with us. And let's, you know, whatever it is. Am I going to paint a big banner? Am I going to create some, some gesture? Am I going to draft a bill? You know, am I going to get all my friends to vote and get them to the polls? Like, are you going to have fun with it? Like, this is an opportunity to be, to look back and tell our, our you know, grandkids that I was there and this is what I was doing. And like, you know, we might all have some heroes of our ancestors and seeing their flare from that time. And you're like, Oh wow, you were there. And so just thinking like, okay, there's like, there's an opportunity to have a lot of fun with this resistance.
Sarah Gambito
I love that. I love that word fun because it's like, Oh, okay, now we're going to rumble. Right? Like, it's like, I'm ready for this. Okay. What about you, Javier? What's coming up for you?
Javier Zamora
For me. Like, I moved to Tucson to finish this memoir. I'm writing about the time. I'm writing about crossing the desert as a nine year old, when I was in 1999 through the Sonoran desert. And I think the metaphor for me that I'm finding is twofold. And it's funny because I, we live near a trail and the night of the election, I just couldn't bear being in the house at like 1:00 AM. So I went for a night hike, and I just remember, and every time I've only been here a month and in my head, you think desert, and you think that there's no life. Even me crossing it. I think my memory was lying to me. I was like, oh, how could I survive? And then you encounter, we encountered so much wildlife, so much life. We encountered so many flowers. Just like nature is almost telling you, you have to dig deeper. We are here and there is hope. And it just rained once. But what, one little like 20 minute rain has made things bloom. And so I think that's all we need. And that's what is giving me hope. And from a personal memory, I didn't remember how beautiful this landscape was. All I went to was the trauma, and now I'm revisiting it. And it's like, Oh, wait, it actually is fucking pretty. It’s not only the bad, but we have to remember the good and know how to put two together in order to literally walk forward, which is what I did as a little kid. I just kept on walking and I am here and I am thriving. And some days are harder. Like these last three days have been terrible. But, I'm still going continue to walk forward.
Sarah Gambito
Thank you both so much for this. I'm deeply grateful to the two of you for leaning into this conversation.
WRAP-UP
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Sarah Gambito
Thank you so much for joining us at Poets Out Loud. Find us on Instagram at Poetic [underscore] Justice [underscore] Institute.